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Behaviour Maanagement - What If Staff Can't


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#1 Guest_jenpercy_*

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 10:08 AM

Some of my staff have been working 9 or more years, the mopst recent 2 years. I am so fed up of asking them to be authorativewithout being authoratarian. Had a talk with all the children (and staff) and said that there was some confusion over our time to think. I clearly (several times) said that if you were told to stop doing something, that would be your first warning, so the second time that you were told would be second warning. I said that some people thought that the first warning wasn't until a member of staff said that you had a warning, giving you (at least) 4 but that wan't so. Repeat first bit. I then said to one of the children, OK so that's your 3rd, you can't go on the computers, and the next set of warnings I wil ring your carer. I then went into the kitchen and I could hear. "A don't do that . A stop it. A give me that etc." I then came out and told A I would be ringing his carer and asked him why he didn't do as the member of staff asked - but we all know the answer - she just can't do it!!!

Another member of staff can only do non-confrontation, or confrontation in a big way. he either lets them all get away with murder, or hands out warnings for minor things, without trying to sort anything.

We discuss behaviour management constantly. they have been on courses. Suggestions, please

#2 Tink69

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 11:30 AM

I am curious, Do you actual ring the parent/carer? If so what do you actually say to them or have I misunderstood what you are saying!

You may need to have a staff meeting to review your behaviour management policy as it clearly isn't working for you all.

Do you have an advisory teacher who could come in and give the whole team training together then when staff don't follow through with what you have all agreed on you can refer back to it and remind them. You also can then go down the route of staff discpilnary procedures if they are not carrying out their jobs correctly.

I have always been told to use as much positive praise and try to ignore the negative. If you tell a child don't do something 9 times out of 10 they will do it. They need to put things in a positive manner.


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#3 Inge

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 12:59 PM

I also often found the children knew who to was the authority figure and who they would ignore or pay no attention to... which is why we rotated everything so all staff had an in charge day , supported, but just be seeing the staff in some area of authority the children seemed to listen a lot more... from what you said above seems like she was trying jst the child did nto see her in the same way as they do you, as 'boss'.

The positive comments is a good way to go... we often found they would respond to put your feet on the ground.. when found standing on chairs etc or bottom on the chair, four feet of the chair on the floor etc... always a what to do rather than a stop or don't do.

One course I did had a tutor who said children never hear the first word of what you are saying to them.. so 'don't run' becomes 'run'... which made us all think about what we are saying to the children.... if a no or don't was used we encouraged staff to use the child's name or something first.. but did avoid it at all costs..

Some people just cannot be firm or give discipline the same way as others... no matter how long they work with children , they see it as being the 'bad' person when often it is the person who gives the most discipline that is the one they will turn to , think they respect them.

A clear procedure needs to be set out.. perhaps have then written as rules on the wall for all to see... (think you are after school so some older children?) if possible work with the children and staff to set them out and have them displayed.. either numbered or bullet points as to what the procedure is. ( I know one after school club who used a yellow card and red card system..so it was clear to all , would something like this give staff more authority and confidence to follow things through.)

and consistency.. as we all know is the name of the game here... no good one saying one thing followed by someone else doing something differently... hence the need to make it clear and easy to follow.

and now I have rambled and probably no help whatsoever will end there..

Inge

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#4 Iusedtobeabox

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 05:35 PM

Was just about to suggest a 'card' system - sure it would work. When I was training, I used a traffic light system when I wanted children to get on with their work - Y2 (whilst I was working with a group). I put a red traffic light up which meant they had to 'stop' in their seats - I was amazed at how effective it was - so was my observer! It also means that staff don't have to really get into discussions - just say, right I'm giving you a yellow card, thats your warning - hopefully you won't have to hand out too many.

#5 kate

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 05:49 PM

How about the IDP programme through NAtional Strategies. It's free! and easy to access on line.

#6 HappyMaz

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 05:52 PM

How about the IDP programme through NAtional Strategies. It's free! and easy to access on line.

It is very good - really makes you think about and reflect on your practice. Quite time consuming though if you do it thoroughly!

Maz

#7 Gezabel

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 07:14 PM

Some of my staff have been working 9 or more years, the mopst recent 2 years. I am so fed up of asking them to be authorativewithout being authoratarian. Had a talk with all the children (and staff) and said that there was some confusion over our time to think. I clearly (several times) said that if you were told to stop doing something, that would be your first warning, so the second time that you were told would be second warning. I said that some people thought that the first warning wasn't until a member of staff said that you had a warning, giving you (at least) 4 but that wan't so. Repeat first bit. I then said to one of the children, OK so that's your 3rd, you can't go on the computers, and the next set of warnings I wil ring your carer. I then went into the kitchen and I could hear. "A don't do that . A stop it. A give me that etc." I then came out and told A I would be ringing his carer and asked him why he didn't do as the member of staff asked - but we all know the answer - she just can't do it!!!

Another member of staff can only do non-confrontation, or confrontation in a big way. he either lets them all get away with murder, or hands out warnings for minor things, without trying to sort anything.

We discuss behaviour management constantly. they have been on courses. Suggestions, please


Forgive me if I have misunderstood your post or I am speaking out of turn here. It seems that one of the main behavioural issues is when children are told to stop doing something and don't - they are asked again and then a third time before then being told for example not being allowed on the computer. The 'consequence' is told to the child along with another 'warning' of ringing carers if they continue doing whatever it is they have been told to stop. It could of course be me but I found it quite confusing and wonder if the children might too?

How about not telling children to simply stop what they are doing. Perhaps they need firm but gentle discipline - it just sounds a bit negative to me, don't do this, stop doing that kind of thing?


I also don't quite understand where you say:

I then said to one of the children, OK so that's your 3rd, you can't go on the computers, and the next set of warnings I wil ring your carer Had the child been told that if he continued he would not be allowed on the computer and do you really ring carers?


For some time we have asked children to stop doing something but always with a reason why. If they continue they reminded that they have been asked to stop and of the reason why - at this stage they are told that if they continue they will need (not have to!) some 'thinking time' sitting quietly with a grown up. This is all done in a postive manner and never with a raised voice. Of course it doesn't always work first time but the majority of the time it does and the number of children actually needing the 'thinking time' is very few. I think there was one child last week who persisted in doing something he had been asked not to.

I guess it is a case of if what you are doing is not working it is time to change tactics but of course with all staff singing from the same hymn sheet.

Good luck, it's not easy and I hope my post doesn't offend - that is certainly not my intention!

#8 lynned55

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 07:32 PM

I have to confess to being a little confused as well I assume we're not talking about preschoolers here? Also I cant understand the bit about the 3rd and 4th warning either.
Sorry,

#9 marley

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 08:17 PM

Hi
Just thougt i would clarify here..Jen works in after school club so ages are 5 - 11 years.

#10 eyfs1966

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 08:37 PM

i think the only way is to model, model and model again and aaaagain and aaaaaagain!!!! It eventually rubs of on the other practitioners.

#11 Guest_jenpercy_*

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 09:00 PM

i think the only way is to model, model and model again and aaaagain and aaaaaagain!!!! It eventually rubs of on the other practitioners.


how many years do you think that would take!!! Actually, modelling how I want them to keep discipline doesn't work, they just melt away like the snows of yesteryear, and leave me to it.

sorry should probably have posted this in After School section. the children know that if their behaviour is not good they don't get to go on computers - works much better than time out. This particular child is a foster child with behaviour issues. I had already told him that he wasn't going on the computers, and then that if he wasn't able to behave, I would ring his carers. he's being fostered 20 miles away and goes home in a taxi so we never see carers. Inaively thought that after my chat, the other member of staff would have been able to say, "second time of telling you, do you want me to get Jen to call your carers."

Does anyone have a link for online course?

#12 Gezabel

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 09:44 PM

. This particular child is a foster child with behaviour issues.



We currently have a child who is being fostered (also with behavioural issues!)
The child should have a PEP it is a legal requirement and should have been put in place by the social worker. We have also got an individual behavioural support plan which was drawn up by us with support from the area SENCO. We also use an ABC chart and record each incident of unacceptable behaviour and it is proving to be really helpful in getting to the root of his behavioural issues -

The behaviour plan has specific targets and then clear strategies showing how the child is being supported in acheiving the targets.

Maybe the child is having difficulties due to the possible differences in rules/boundaries and settings. The expectations of him may vary from school /after school club/ foster home.

Are you involved in TAC meetings for this child?

I don't know how old your child is but when you say " if he wasn't able to behave' does he really understand what it is he is doing that is unacceptable.

I know it must be hard for you and the staff and I am not for a second suggesting it is easy but I do feel for this child who clearly has alot on their plate :o

#13 Guest_jenpercy_*

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 10:22 PM

we sometimes get invited to meetings, if anyone remembers to tell us - but weren't told anything about child when we were asked to have him. He's 9, so we are not primary setting. We have to have consequences for actions - hence no computers, and it's certainly easier than getting him to sit in time out

#14 HoneyPancakes

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 07:20 AM

If you're caring for this child for 2 or 3 hours a day, then you really need to be in the loop.

Oh..I'm starting to feel very anxious. Dealing with disruptive children is hard work - especially when your setting isn't cut out for it. But I'm thinking about this child's day. He is in foster care presumably because his parents didn't care about him. I'm sure his foster parents care deeply but thier lives must be busy if he's in OH Club. Assuming he goes to school in taxi too, he spends the best part of an hour in taxis with drivers who don't care about him. If his behaviour is poor then he's probably having a hard time socialising at school, so noone really cares about him there.

This child needs POSITIVE attention!!! The staff need to know how their actions affect the child! They need to know just how important it is for the child, the other children in the setting and for society as a whole.

Failing to discipline this child in a POSITIVE way fails him, the setting and society! GET OUT THE TOUGH LOVE on the staff!

Now...do I press 'Send'?

Fe

#15 whitetree

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 08:37 AM

One of my staff brought this gem back from a training.

Most young children don't hear the first word you say to them so when you say 'don't run' they only hear 'run'

It really does work to use the child's name or just a word such as 'and' or 'now' before the important bit you want heard.

#16 Guest_jenpercy_*

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 09:27 AM

If you're caring for this child for 2 or 3 hours a day, then you really need to be in the loop.

Oh..I'm starting to feel very anxious. Dealing with disruptive children is hard work - especially when your setting isn't cut out for it. But I'm thinking about this child's day. He is in foster care presumably because his parents didn't care about him. I'm sure his foster parents care deeply but thier lives must be busy if he's in OH Club. Assuming he goes to school in taxi too, he spends the best part of an hour in taxis with drivers who don't care about him. If his behaviour is poor then he's probably having a hard time socialising at school, so noone really cares about him there.

This child needs POSITIVE attention!!! The staff need to know how their actions affect the child! They need to know just how important it is for the child, the other children in the setting and for society as a whole.

Failing to discipline this child in a POSITIVE way fails him, the setting and society! GET OUT THE TOUGH LOVE on the staff!

Now...do I press 'Send'?

Fe

Thanks for that reminder - he's had a hard time. He's with us cos he's kown us longer than foster carers. they have only him, which although it makes sense means he's with us for socialising. All the perfectly vlaid advice about how to deal with usual children don't apply. he had no boundaries in an abusive family - and he's testing the boundaries. He says that he's got problems and he can't behave - but he can if he's given clear boundaries and consequences. some of our staff have difficulties dealing with him. they often ignore him and come to get my supervisor or myself. When they do say anything, they are ineffectual, even backing down if he refuses to co-operate, but in any case they can't bring themselves to go through the process of issuing a consequence and following it through
. I'm prepared to back them and make sure he abides by consequences BUT it always ends up, by Supervisor or me coming along and taking him to task for not listening to staff. we have had numerous discussions where I've told them that THEy should be saying "If you don't do this you will have to, but they seem to be scared of confrontation with him and any of the other more difficult children.

he knows who he can get away with playing up. He vknows all about exploiting weakness, manipulating etc. he needs firm and consistent staff and he's just not getting ti from them. I should be able to get o with work in the office - especially as thigs are starting to get quieter in these last few weeks of term but I feel it necessary to be on hand at all times.

#17 HoneyPancakes

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 10:45 AM

Sorry - so rambling, lost the real point.- all that was supposed to be ammo to give the staff reasons for being consistent. If they know the benefits and consequences of their actions, they might be more likely to perform appropriately.

Good Luck

Fe

Ps: might PM you about running OH club since you're not so busy!! :o

#18 Sam

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 07:40 PM

Interesting post.

I don't have much experience of after school clubs, but presume you have staff meetings ? Maybe during a staff meeting you could set up a 'role play' type exercise whereby rules of the 'exercise' are explained at the outset, however you and your supervisor could undermine, break rules of 'exercise/game' letting eachother 'off' so it spoils the game, activity or whatever. I don't know a specific 'exercise' off the top of my head, but I'm sure you can mock something up. Might help get the message over to your staff members ?

I too strongly believe in using positive language when dealing with behaviour reinforcement - it's the behaviour that's not acceptable, not the child.

Good Luck

#19 Rea

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 09:31 PM

Have staff said why they cant?
Isnt it part of their job description to look after the welfare of all the children and ensure everyones safety?
I'd tell them they have to do it. Being firm doesnt mean shouting or being mean, its about laying ground rules and everyone undrestanding the consequences should those rules be broken. Are the staff able to deal with other issues form other children? If not, is it just because this chld is in foster care that they think they shouldnt repremand im? That could be seen by other children as preferentail treatment and he'll know if he's not being treated fairly too.
They really need to think about why they wont deal with him.
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#20 Guest_jenpercy_*

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 07:06 AM

Have staff said why they cant?
Isnt it part of their job description to look after the welfare of all the children and ensure everyones safety?
I'd tell them they have to do it. Being firm doesnt mean shouting or being mean, its about laying ground rules and everyone undrestanding the consequences should those rules be broken. Are the staff able to deal with other issues form other children? If not, is it just because this chld is in foster care that they think they shouldnt repremand im? That could be seen by other children as preferentail treatment and he'll know if he's not being treated fairly too.
They really need to think about why they wont deal with him.

Staff are not goode at discipline with any child - it's because he is unpredictable and hard to handle that they don't reallly try. For example, he's never in any fights, because the other children, although they like him (he does lots of things they would like to) wouldn't start anything with him, just in case.

I know all the stuff about reinforcing positive behaviour - but when a child is deliberately doing something to wind you up and push the boundaries, you need to be firm and let them know you won't stand for it. Also a child who's mother has told him he's bad, who thinks he's in foster care because HE's been bad (after all it was probably his behavoir that first got him noticed at school and started them looking at his home life), when you are starting to sat "I can't behave, I've got problems) you need to be told firmly that you can behave and if you choose not to there are consequences. I think it could be something to do with not feeling that they are in charge of the consequences, but I have explained until I am blue in the face, that if they say, "OK you have been warned, I will see that Jen rings your carers (if that is the current level of escalation0, that would be them in control. If I come in and say why haven't you listened to staff, I'm going to do x, then that is undermining their authority. I ask them why, they say yes I should have but THAT is as far as we get.

The role play idea is something I have been thinking of, thanks Sam




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